Seton Hall Ranked 3rd in NY Area Preseason Poll
by BracketManSHU on Oct 5, 2011 12:47 PM EDT
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PrintSeton Hall is pegged third behind Iona and Rutgers in NYC Buckets' inaugural preseason poll that dropped this morning.
John Templon started NYC Buckets this off-season to put a greater focus on the mid and low-major New York area schools and their basketball programs. Previous to NYC Buckets, John ran a very informative site about the Chicago-based D-I basketball programs. Since everyone loves rankings and polls, John and I decided to team up and establish this poll to see how all the New York area teams stack up against each other.
We have already added local writers Jerry Carino and Josh Newman to the voting panel and look to attract more well known scribes in the future.
Check out the complete rankings after the jump.
- Iona
- Rutgers
- Seton Hall
- St. John’s
- Fairfield
- Long Island
- Princeton
- Stony Brook
- Hofstra
- Rider
- Wagner
- Yale
- St. Peter’s
- Columbia
- Fordham
- Manhattan
- Sacred Heart
- Army
- NJIT
- Monmouth
- Marist
- St. Francis (NY)
- Fairleigh Dickinson
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I really don't believe in polls and the prophetic.
But is Cleuss(spelling) that good? Did MoMo qualify? The list is a real head-scratcher.
Iona returns a lot of talent...
Including a guy who was slated to be a star at Seton Hall in Michael Glover. May I ask, what’s head scratching on the list? As one of the voters, I’d love to hear arguments for and against many of the teams!
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different league and league style play and different level of recruits
Do you think Iona could beat any and all teams in the BE and get into the NCAA tourney? I don’t. And if they can’t how can you say that they are 1?
BE vs MAAC
I’m a strong follower of KenPom. If we assume his stats are accurate (they are very accurate), Iona was between the level of Seton Hall and Rutgers last year.
Iona is expected to be better this season – significantly better if MoMo can play. That’s good for around 10th in the Big East and good enough to argue that Iona > SJU/RU/SHU.
Chris McManus | Lead Writer / Recruiting Analyst for SouthOrangeJuice.com
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by BracketManSHU on Oct 5, 2011 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions
This poll is really stretching stats to a point of the "ludicris"
Iona couldn’t beat st. peters. When did the BE ever lose to St. Peters? The BE was arguably the best league in the country. If BE stats were comparable the MAAC would get 9 invites to the NCAAS.
Clarification
And Iona took it to Syracuse at the Carrier Dome. But its irrelevant. Which school is the most dangerous going into this season? Iona was very similarly rated to all three BE teams yet loses the least. Is Iona clearly the #1 team in the area? No. But its far, far from ridiculous, ludicrous or surprising.
As for your last sentence, I have no idea what you’re trying to say. Iona was equivalent to SHU/RU last year and Fairfield was equivalent to Providence. Again, that is far from ridiculous.
Chris McManus | Lead Writer / Recruiting Analyst for SouthOrangeJuice.com
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by BracketManSHU on Oct 5, 2011 11:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Equivalent?
What do you mean by that? Are we talking stats? You’re saying after a season in the BE Iona would be equivalent to SHU/RU. Considering the style of play, the type of recruits and the coaches, I’m saying that they aren’t in anyway, shape or form.
Equivalent
forget the almighty Big East for a second. According to a deadly accurate team ranking database, Iona iwas smack dab in the middle of Rutgers and Seton Hall and slightly behind St. Johns last season.
Conference affiliation plays no part in this. Which team is the best when compared side to side with the others? Well see how this season plays out.
Chris McManus | Lead Writer / Recruiting Analyst for SouthOrangeJuice.com
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by BracketManSHU on Oct 6, 2011 4:12 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Kenpom statistics are subjective to that team's competition, though.
A team’s SOS is a better indicator (among teams with a + number of wins) before we can start comparing teams side-by-side about “who’s better.” Now, you can only rank a team based on who they play, but the level of competition between the leagues is light years apart. Look at the difference in last year’s SOS for example, as this year should be pretty close to the same given the teams, their conferences and their non-conference schedules.
Regardless of how many people are returning to an, “X-win” team, does it really matter if that team doesn’t play anybody such as Fairfield or Long Island? Just because SJU’s is fielding a team of freshman (high school all american’s, mind you), does that mean they’re necessarily worse than a team that won 20 games and is returning many of their starters, despite accumulating those wins against one of the weakest schedules in Division one basketball?
Last year’s SOS: St. John’s – 6th, Fairfield – 274, Princeton 170, Long Island 303, Iona, 194, Seton Hall 12.
Yes, last year Iona finished with a similar KenPom ranking as Seton Hall (65th – 59), however Iona’s SOS was nearly 200 teams lower than Seton Hall’s. If the Pirates played in the MAAC would they have finished 59th overall? I really doubt it. A lot of those close losses in conference way would have likely swayed the other way.
Now, that all said, I believe Iona is PROBABLY (man, they’re very, very talented) better than Seton Hall and Rutgers this year, but saying Fairfield, Princeton and Long Island are ahead of St. John’s is taking the statistics a bit too far in my opinion.
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Aha!
The problem of a stat dominated poll is so obvious. The stats include what a team did the previous year then adds speculation on what they will do this year. So the poll becomes a mixture of facts and fantasy. Let’s see, hmmm….As a friend put it to me, it’s harder to get 2 points in the BE than in the MAAC. And he’s right. The poll is very questionable. Very.
Well, I mean, I wouldn't get too worked up over this Metro-area preseason poll.
It’s really just for fun. Iona is going to be very talented and they’re the sexy name right now. Everybody is on them, big time. Some people believe those other schools mentioned are better than St. John’s and that’s their right. We will see who the better teams are once play starts (though they certainly wouldn’t be playing each other) and if anyone makes it through watching an entire Long Island Blackbirds game, more power to you.
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LOL
Dude, St. John’s has NO ONE returning while Iona has nearly everyone. Why should that not be taken into consideration? That’s how pre-season polls work…
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by BracketManSHU on Oct 6, 2011 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions
It should be.
As should the talent level of St. John’s incoming freshmen versus the talent level of the other schools returning players.
There’s no right or wrong answer right now.
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SOS & SJU
SOS: I’m pretty sure that KenPom takes SOS into consideration — it would be foolish not to.
SJU: We’ll see how it all pans out. Fairfield & Princeton over St. John’s is only my opinion.
Chris McManus | Lead Writer / Recruiting Analyst for SouthOrangeJuice.com
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by BracketManSHU on Oct 6, 2011 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions
It does take SOS into consideration as one statistic out of ten taking into consideration.
What I was saying is SOS should be weighted greater than team’s offensive efficiency, defensive efficiency, etc., which are relative to their SOS.
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no, but....
They might just beat Rutgers/ Seton Hall/ St. John’s. That’s actually believable, especially early in the season. An experienced mid-major with a notable Big East-level talent against any of those teams, with middling returning talent and a LOT of youth?
Each one of the local Big East teams is bound to have a “you lost to WHO?!” defeat early in the season.
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Iona
That was my reaction early last season when an 0-3 Iona (recently lost to Bryant) beat Richmond (SHU opponent). Turned out that both teams were pretty solid.
Chris McManus | Lead Writer / Recruiting Analyst for SouthOrangeJuice.com
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by BracketManSHU on Oct 6, 2011 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Iona
Iona loses next to nothing from a real good team. They return one of the best combos in the country in Scott Machado & Mike Glover. I really good shot at an at-large (what other schools can you say that for on this list?)
I’m really not surprised at all, Iona was voted #1 by most of the voters.
You would probably be up in arms at my individual votes. I have Long Island & Fairfield ahead of St. John’s.
Chris McManus | Lead Writer / Recruiting Analyst for SouthOrangeJuice.com
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by BracketManSHU on Oct 5, 2011 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
It was a lot more head-scratching in John's first poll
when he had SJU 6th behind Fairfield & Princeton. Though, Chris agrees with Fairfield and even puts LI ahead of SJU. For me, it largely comes down to their strength of schedule. Put Fairfield, LI or Princeton in the BIG EAST and none of three finish with as many wins at St. John’s. Obviously, there is no way to prove it, but that’s my gut.
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St. John's vs. Mid Majors
There is no right answer. There is not much between teams 1-7.
My argument is that St. John’s has some nice talent coming in (for sure, a few might join second semester) but is working with 8~ scholarship players, 7 of which weren’t playing with the team last season. That is as big of a question mark as it gets. Factor in that Lavin isn’t known for being the best X’s and O’s coach and that’s why I rate Fairfield and Long Island ahead of the Johnnies (both lose little, if anything.)
I can even see Princeton ahead of St. John’s. However, they lose two significant players but do retain Ian Hummer.
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by BracketManSHU on Oct 5, 2011 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
If Iona is #1
What does that say about its former coach? Aren’t those maninly his kids. This 4 years after he started when the team was somewhere in the range of 2-22.
We will see how accurate the RU selection is with a Freshman 5’ 9" point guard.
I agree that St. Joohn’s has too many new faces to jell in year one.
Great idea for the survey. This site gets better all the time.
Iona
Around half of their current roster is comprised of Willard kids.
Chris McManus | Lead Writer / Recruiting Analyst for SouthOrangeJuice.com
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by BracketManSHU on Oct 5, 2011 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions
And just like that a top-10 PG in the 2012 class is on the board in Dominic Artis.
I don’t believe Seton Hall will be involved. He’ll likely stay out west, or if he ventures east it will be to one of the Florida schools that were aggresively after him initially.
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Artis decommited from UCLA.
Could have seen that coming, no way was he was going to ride the bench for Anderson, he’s just too good.
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by GonzoBallSHU on Oct 6, 2011 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions
lol what are the chances
that Kyle tells him how good we were to him
As I've been mentioning on Twitter this afternoon, new Seton Hall target 2012 6'8 PF Charles Buggs.
Seton Hall coaches have been watching him during September at post-graduate Hargrave Military Academy in Chatham, VA.
-Arlington Texas Native, injured half of his senior year of HS, for that reason had no major offers. Enrolled in HMA and his recruiting is starting to blow up.
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Strengths:
Charles is an exceptionally live-bodied face up four man for the next level. He’s a graceful athlete with very quick reflexes and he’s an elite leaper. Two-hand dunks with ease while also showing good touch with his jumper and in the lane. He changes ends very well plus he’s an extremely intelligent kid who wants to be coached and get better. Doesn’t really have any bad habits and there’s a hunger about him to improve.
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Weakness:
His basketball body is immature at the moment. He’s a face-up four because he doesn’t have the strength to hold his positon on the block or post up. Buggs could be a really good rebounder but he’s only getting to balls that come right to him due to lack of beef. As a high school player in Texas he never posted big numbers so you question whether he’s more passive than aggressive. Hopefully a post-grad year at Hargrave will help him flip the switch.
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Bottom Line:
Charles is a very intelligent, well-spoken kid. He missed half of his senior year because of injury in 2011 and therefore had no high or mid level offers. He’ll have every chance to prove himself and earn a scholarship. He has a high major ceiling so everyone in the country will be looking at him because of his size, natural athletic ability and skill set.
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He sounds like a project.
And won’t have an impact right away. But talented enough for us to pursue.
Onetime Seton Hall target Negus Webster-Chan off the board to Mizzou.
Never really had much of a realistic shot with him, anyway.
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Will have a new recruiting piece up sometime tonight / early tomorrow morning with a recap of the week's events.
Look for some info on a new target. Stay tuned.
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A sneak peek to the new recruiting piece, includes the news I just tweeted
New Target – Charles Mitchell, a 2012 PF, 2’8-250 out of Wheeler HS in Georgia. Ranked 25th PF in the class by ESPN and 12th by Rivals. Check the Twitter stream for more info on Mitchell. There will also be another target coming in the piece later.
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