Seton Hall Basketball: USF 55, Seton Hall 54; Tampa Bay Trapped
by GonzoBallSHU on Jan 13, 2012 10:12 PM EST
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PrintOver the course of the season, some losses sting especially hard, while some leave you with a drop in the pit of your stomach. Tonight was surely the latter. #24 Seton Hall (15-3, 4-2) fell to South Florida, 55-54 in front of a sparse crowd at the Tampa Bay Times Forum. This is likely the last recap I will write with, "#X" in front of the words, 'Seton Hall,' for quite some time. That's the sad reality. The Pirates certainly didn't play to the level you'd expect to see out of a Top-25 team. For as wrong as the coaches were for leaving the Pirates out of the ESPN/USA Today Poll, well, the team did them no favors and they've now got the last laugh.
Leading by 8 points with 9 minutes remaining, USF rallied off a 16-6 run that saw Seton Hall go ice cold from the floor (2-of-10), while the Bulls were able to execute offensively in the closing minutes. Still, after a missed Jawanza Poland free throw with 0:21 remaining, the Pirates would have another chance. Kevin Willard decided to let them play instead of using a timeout to draw up a play. Theodore nearly found Pope under the basket, but USF swatted the pass attempt out of bounds with 6 seconds remaining. Willard then used a timeout and drew up a play for Theodore. After the inbounds pass, JT was foolishly fouled by Anthony Collins as he was wrapping around traffic trying to find a lane. At least, we thought it was foolish at the time. Instead of forcing Theodore into taking a difficult game-winning attempt, Collins and USF sent a 86% FT shooter to the line with a pair of freebies standing in the way of another Seton Hall victory. Unfortunately, the front-end rimmed out and rolled to mid-court as the closing seconds ticked off the clock. Gut. Punch.
It was a game Seton Hall should have had, it was a game they needed to have. Seton Hall has more talent than South Florida and can not afford to lose games to teams they're supposed to beat. However, as we've seen in the conference all year, nothing is surprising. Surely, the Bulls are not easy at home, where they've lost one game all year, to the defending champions and by a margin of 3 points. That said, at the end of the season the selection committee may very well pin this loss on the Pirates as a, "bad loss." Who knows, the Pirates are just a half game better than the Bulls in-conference right now, so it's really too early to discuss whether it's a bad loss or it isn't. For right now, the loss knocks the Pirates out of the Poll and gives the doubters ammunition, so at the moment, indeed, bad loss.
Unfortunately, the heartbreaker rained on the coming out of freshman, Haralds Karlis. Fighting injury and struggling to find minutes as of late, he went off for 12pts/4reb/3stl and was absolutely in NBA Jam en-fuego mode in the second half, hitting 4-of-5 from deep. Surprisingly, South Florida did a tremendous job at limiting Herb Pope (10pts/7reb) and Fuquan Edwin 4pts/3reb), who took just five shots on the night. The game plan looked to take Edwin completely out of the game and the Bulls did as good a job as any opponent this season. He barely got touches.
I can't believe it's come to this, but it might be time for this team to get in the gym to work on their layups and bunnies. As ridiculous as that sounds, too many Pirates have struggled to convert the open and easy looks. It's almost as if certain players get nervous when they realize how wide open they are with the rock in their hands under the basket. Who is going to dunk the ball on this team? Why is everyone going to the rim timid? This is the Big East, those attempts don't fly, literally. Dunk the damn basketball.
Now, allow me to make a couple comments on Jordan Theodore (16pts/5ast/4stl/3reb/3to, 5-of-14), who showed flashes of the old JT and the new JT in what was a bit of an identity crisis throughout the night. At times, he played out of control as we saw excessive dribbling leading to turnovers, poor shot selection and generally, the Jordan of old who often attempted to do too much. At other times, he was hitting big shots and converting tough reverse layups. Say he choked at the end of the game and cost the Pirates the game, you'd have a valid point. He's the senior captain of the team and needs to make those, agreed. Without having heard any of the post game quotes from Kevin Willard or the players as of yet, I'd be absolutely SHOCKED if Theodore didn't put the loss squarely on himself. It's just the type of competitor he is. I can also GUARANTEE you that Jordan WILL improve from this loss. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if he takes off for the gym before the plane comes to a complete landing in Newark. Take my word and believe that the loss will make him better. Or don't. Go ahead and count him out now, you'll be back.
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Just Disappointed...
Road wins in this conference are hard to come by and I knew going in that tonight would be no different. I wasnt putting this one in the win column before tip like some others in the game preview but I no doubt thought in the end we would prevail in a tight hard fought game. And I could not have felt more confident about that when JT strode to the line to shoot the 1 and 1 with 6+ seconds left. Im NOT putting this L on JT and i agree with what you (Gonzo) tweeted after that he will get beteer because of this I have all the confidence in the world in him and his game and would put him at the line again with a chance to win. But because we did loose the game there are things that caused it just as things cause W’s. Some thoughts from the game.
1) Not sure who to put more of the blame on for this one Willard? or the players collectively. I have to believe that Willard had them prepared and tried to have them focused. I also think he sensed that his team came out a little flat to start the game and that he tried to send a message to his big 3. There was that breif stretch were Wilson, Cosby, Karlis, Mobley, and AG were the 5 on the court. I know some of these guys see regular minutes but to have that particular 5 on the court together I think Willard was trying to send JT, Fu, and Herb a message that they needed to pick it.
2) Kinda feeds off number 1 so I wont say much here but there was definetly a lasck of intensity in tonights game.
3) Im wondering if anyone else is as confused/dissatisfied with our offensive against the zone as i am?? so far in game o far this season we have struggled against zone defences. Yes the Uconn game we killed their zone but they were gambling and jumping into passing lanes leaving guys open and we were hitting shots that night. But 3 specific games for me that come to mind are tonights, the Cuse game, and the Northwestern game. Against the cuse their zone absolutely killed us end of story. The other 2 games though we had been playing ok and had a lead in both i think when the other team switched to a zone, NW i think we led by 5-9 when they went zone and tonight we were up 10 when USF switched. This completely took us out of any offensive flow we had, tonight it wasnt much, and everything stalled. Watching us against the zone it seems our
offense is pass the ball around the perimeter and then have JT try to create/force something at the end of the shot clock. No high screens, not baseline screens no overloading, no high low game. I think my high school team had mor offensive plays to run against a zone than the Pirates.
It feels weird complaining because if you told me pre season that on Jan 13 we would be 15-3 (4-2) i would have said yes no questions asked. Still its a tough loss to swallow and they will have to bounce back next week. #PirateNation
This happens to top 25 teams
They were collectively off thier game. They looked tired, passing was sloppy, shot selection was poor, they were on the road and a few calls went the other way. Yet, defense was not bad and they were in a position to win at the end. This is not a bad loss. They lost to a good team who is now 9-1 at home.
They will sleep it off, practice hard and come back hungry next week. This is something we all should believe.
Can we ever close out these games
Every game we play in there is a period in the second half that we just seem to lose it. Against WV we almost lost and same with uconn providence and depaul. Why cant we put these games away and make it easy to watch. Up by 10 and we lose and i put it all on JT. We were runnig around headless. JT needs needs to slow the game down and needs to run the offense. He forces shots and passes that should never been shot or throwned. And on the the zone d that usf put up rk1212 u are absolutely right. We had no answer just like the NW game. We sat on the perimeter and just shucked up shots and thats why we lost both games. I would of thought after the NW game we would of had a solution to the zone but i guess not because it didnt seem like we did. I really cant tell u how mad i am now but we just need to put it behind us and rebound (something elese we didnt do) with a win against nova. We are still in a good spot. Lets forget about 2nite and focus on beating nova.
by setonhall44 on Jan 13, 2012 10:53 PM EST via iPhone app reply actions
Stupid loss? Bad Loss?
Right now it’s stupid. Down the road it might become bad. A loss like this was bound to happen. But you have to give USF credit… Next!
The reason for this loss is what Seton Hall consistently lacks.......
Seton Hall continue to be the smallest team. Herb Pope (playing out of position) just cant play against the taller frontline players of the better teams in the Big East.
His numbers in Non-Conference play has dropped big time in the Big East Schedule. Auda is invisible
Next 3 Games
The next 3 games NOVA, ND, LVILLE, are extremely important to us, if we lose any of these 3 it shows that we will not be contenders in the big east this year, or next year. If we can get a few more players to come with Carr, possibly Austin Colbert, maybe 2013 will be our return to relevance
Also
WHY DID MOBLEY START!!!!!!!
If it’s not broke don’t fix it
He didn't?
I bet he can make wide open layups though.
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by GonzoBallSHU on Jan 14, 2012 12:38 AM EST up reply actions
Where, not who, is Herb Pope?
Admittedly i didnt get to watch the game. But like that mobile phone commercial where the dude is checking his phone whilst at dinner with a bird, i too was checking the score and hitting refresh like a mug. And to my shock and bewilderment I kept seeing the lead shrink until, yup, there it was… the SHU of old. And I’m thinking the whole time that it would be great to have a senior step up and reel in the young bucks and preserve our ranking.
But “we are who they (coaches poll) thought we were… and we let them off the hook”.
Makes me wonder if the wrong question was asked prior to UCONN, not who but WHERE is Herb Pope?
by TheKaiser10 on Jan 14, 2012 1:34 AM EST via Android app reply actions
Big East
This is how its been in the Beast all year. Better teams lose to less talented teams all year, especially on the road. i can almost guarantee that Jordan will be in the gym working on those freebees. One thing is for certain the team looked flat out there. Maybe they were sipping to much of there own Kool-Aid and believed the HYPE. Either way this is what a team needs to refocus and get back to basics. The funny thing happened the other day We beat UConn. I bet you when they were playing us they were like who in Hell is SHU… One more thing JT can pass the ball but he cant make a player make a lay-up!!! SMH.
agree with likwitdraino
If players can’t consistently make wide open layups, they shouldn’t be on the floor in crunch time.
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by GonzoBallSHU on Jan 14, 2012 8:15 AM EST via iPhone app reply actions
Agree with everyone
No more predictions from here on out from me.Were all gonna need a couple of days to shake this one off !!!! Beat Nova……….
Pope the Point
Did anyone else yell “F’ing Herb Pope!”, when he was leading a break and dribbled into an engulfing crowd, and instead of stopping and passing back to a guard, switched the dribble to his left hand (as if showing his dexterity to scouts) and then threw ahead the worst pass of the game, right into a USF player’s hands?
Easily the boner play of the game, because it was so much about showing off his skills, rather than being prudent at a critical time.
Correction
Just didn’t like this post. Should have said, “with love and respect” or something. Herb is great for the program, a great teammate, great in playing center when PF would provide him better future opportunities, etc. But that is what I said when I saw that over-dribbling play. Apologies for the bad tone.
Recruiting Tidbits- 2012 F Demetric Austin (Springbrook, MD)
-Will take an official visit to Seton Hall on February 10th.
-Claims offers from DePaul and St. Peter’s with interest from Seton Hall.
-Close friend of Seton Hall commit, Aquille Carr.
-Chris Pompey, who reeled in Carr, is also the lead recruiter of Austin.
-He’s a 6’6C in high school, but I’m told he’ll play the 3/4 at the next level.
-Pompey watched Austin drop 16pts/20reb/6ast last month against Magruder.
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Did you see the game last night?
We need a PG. When JT was out…. Wilson will be good but we need to have an option. We also need tall. It’s one of the reasons ’Cuse and USF beat us. So what we need is a tall PG!
I've been saying for months, we're going to take a 2012 PG. Whether, he's also going to be tall, that I can't answer.
I don’t understand what you’re getting at by asking if I saw the game though.
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by GonzoBallSHU on Jan 14, 2012 4:12 PM EST up reply actions
Just being ironic...
If anybody thinks we could sign anybody but a PG after watching what happened last night after JT sat for a while… We also have problems with teams that are tall… like ’Cuse and USF.
Not a "Bad" loss in the eyes of the RPI
Ok, now that the dust has settled a bit on “what does this loss mean” in the bigger picture, i want to start off with some givens. Its given that we need a PG to step up, and we need to get “bigger”. Its also given that the best indicator of what this loss means will be our next game. Anyone remember ‘Cuse to WVU? We came back like gangbusters and everyone didn’t even remember the ’Cuse blow out.
Now let’s look at terms of this as a “bad loss” or is it?
I would suggest that if you looked at other upsets that happened in the Top 25 on saturday, that it puts SHU’s loss away to SFlorida into a bigger picture. I’ll agree with
11yearPlanabove that said that these things happen to Top25 teams. We get targets put on us, and when we slip up, teams try to scalp the big boys.
Now, as good friend HallBall99 will say about me, i’ve never been one for stats. But i have grown to love them in the past years.
If you simply look at the change in our RPI prior and following this game, it doesn’t look that bad of a loss (SHU’s delta went from an RPI of 4 to an RPI of 5). Not that bad. When you look at other teams that lost on saturday, this might be a better indicator:
SHU (lost by 1 away to SFlorida): Net Change of 1 (4 RPI to 5 RPI)
Michigan State (lost by 7 away to Northwester): Net Change of 1 (6RPI to 7RPI)
Michigan (lost by 16 away to Iowa): Net Change of 4 (22 RPI to 26RPI)
Kansas St (lost by 9 away to Oklahoma): Net Change of 8 (26 RPI to 32RPI)
And finally, UNC (destroyed by 33 away to Fla State): Net Change of 7 (7RPI to 14RPI)
So, our loss doesn’t look “THAT BAD” in the grand scheme of things. Actually, in terms of RPI, the winning teams from the upsets had more to gain. SFlorida only gained one spot (from 91 RPI to 90). And according to this ad hoc multiple regression analysis, the Michigan loss was much worse: Iowa changed from 123 to 102 RPI. Which brings up the “gap” analysis of differences of RPI losing/upset Top 25 teams to the teams that beat them (prior to the loss).
N’Wester/MichState: gap of 23
FSU/UNC: gap of 51
Okla/Kansas St: gap of 52
SHU/SFla: gap of 87
Mich/Iowa: gap of 101
The final step in this is to factor in the margin of victory (which RPI doesn’t do, due to perceived influences on gambling):
I haven’t worked out a statistical calculation for how to do that (i reckon i’d have a different job if i did) but:
UNC’s 33 pt loss, KSU’s 9 pt loss, Michigan’s 16 pt loss, MichSt’s 7 pt loss will be an better indicator of “what SHU’s 1pt loss means”. Let me think about how to calculate this statistically…
by TheKaiser10 on Jan 15, 2012 10:45 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
I appreciate all you're saying with the stats but..
the reason why we were ranked 24th and didn’t appear on 2 other national polls was not stats but the fact that SHU is a suspect school. If it was a matter of stats we would be better than 24th and we would be listed on all the polls. What it comes down to is, they don’t believe we have legs. We’ve been lucky. The BE is down. And you could add you’re own excuses. Right now it’s obvious that we’re a fragile team. We have 1 reliable scorer, JT. And our second and third options change game to game. Not the best situation to be in. But our defense is steady and reliable. So going forward we have JT, a 2nd option and tough defense. So we should avoid the RIP oh, I mean RPI problem and end up ranked going into the BE Tourney.
No surprise !!!
Vegas had this a 1 point game. Wow… how day do dat?( stats) I believe your right Kaiser. It is really only a bad loss to the fans, with the coaches poll pending and all and that god awful ending. Still a loss though. I really had a tough night sleeping fri pm. Someone might want to remind Willard not to schedule another game on Friday the13th ever again. :)
Recruiting tidbits from the weekend:
-Aquille Carr dropped 38 points last night in a loss to St. Benedict’s at the Dan Finn Classic in Jersey City.
-2012 PF Christopher Obekpa (OSNA, NY) recorded 10pts/13reb/8blk in 29min in a Our Savior New American victory over Mount St. Joseph this morning. His game was watched by coaches from St. John’s, UConn, WVU, Northeastern, Cincinnati.
-2013 PF Kris Jenkins (Gonzaga, DC) went for 30pts/11reb logging 30 minutes in a win over riverside yesterday.
-2013 PG Jairus Lyles (DeMatha, MD) who continued listing SHU after Carr’s commitment, had 4pts/8reb/6ast (12 min) in DeMatha win Saturday.
Founder & Editor of SouthOrangeJuice.Com
Bye, Bye, Bobby!
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2013 PF Neville Fincher had 18pts/15rebs for Teaneck NJ last night.
Founder & Editor of SouthOrangeJuice.Com
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Seton Hall and Georgetown recently reached out to 2014 SG Isaiah Whitehead (Lincoln, NY) per Alex Kline.
Seton Hall’s interest in Whitehead first surfaced last fall.
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Nobody said that Seton Hall
would run through the beast schedule with ease. Teams have off nights. Sometimes winnable games slip away. My expectations at the beginning of the season were a 20-10 record going into the Big east tourney. I still think this team can better that. On to Nova!
Didn’t C ‘da game Friday night
but the ? I have is ‘How the hell do you score 51 in the 1st half on Wed and 2 nights later only score 54 for the entire game … what’s with that?’
All season I been screaming about shooting foul shots and now our BEST player misses the front end of a 1-n-1 down 1 w/6+ seconds 2 play … should have won that game 4 sure!
As we look forward to this Wed night’s road game @ NOVA we will once again need to hit foul shots … have been to a ton of games on NOVA’s campus (went to dinner w/Raff & Rollie years ago after a Hall loss) and this is gonna be another close game … trust the Kids From ‘da Hall’ will come out w/a lot of energy and play real hard … as I type this MU just beat L’ville and there’s NO reason we can’t beat NOVA, ND & L’ville over the next 2 weeks… sssooooooooooooooooo LET’S GO HALL and bring back some booty (“W’s”) and we be sailing back into the Polls!
USF plays great defense, when they went to zone we went on a 6-0 run and then hit a wall.
I believe they’re 2nd overall in the Beast in terms of team defense.
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by GonzoBallSHU on Jan 16, 2012 6:50 PM EST up reply actions
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